tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post4215230867391378489..comments2024-03-18T08:28:01.624+00:00Comments on BishopBlog: How the media spun the Tim Hunt storydeevybeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-29692662258653596412015-07-01T07:17:27.211+01:002015-07-01T07:17:27.211+01:00Not sure who you are following on Twitter, but I&#...Not sure who you are following on Twitter, but I'm puzzled by the constant allusions to a howling mob. Could somebody please perhaps storify the relevant tweets so we can evaluate this claim? Unless you are referring to #distractinglysexy, which was a good-humoured campaign of mockery that did not call for anything to happen to Hunt. <br />The whole thing is now starting to get surreal, because Louise Mensch appears to have been stirring up her own howling mob to challenge those who were seen as part of the mythical original howling mob. You know you've reached peak Twitter madness when you see a tweet that has mentions @deevybee and @louisemensch complaining about unfairness, lack of attention to facts, oppression of freedom of speech etc and you genuinely can't work out what side they are on.<br />For the record, my position on Hunt was stated in the pieces referenced at the start of my blog above. I didn't howl in either of them.<br />deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-43034919697895905762015-07-01T01:46:29.426+01:002015-07-01T01:46:29.426+01:00I'm one such woman. Thank you for speaking!I'm one such woman. Thank you for speaking!Ophelia Bensonhttp://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-85744405023066939202015-06-30T22:30:54.096+01:002015-06-30T22:30:54.096+01:00 (c) UCL are explicit that their acceptance of his... (c) UCL are explicit that their acceptance of his resignation from an honorary position had nothing to do with the reaction on social media. <br /><br />This claim is disingenuous in the extreme. Certainly, their acceptance had nothing to do with the howling mob - except that the tendering of that resignation had everything to do with the howling mob.<br /><br />Likewise, your quick and dirty suggestion that people can not think for themselves, but must be led by the nose through the force of MSM brain hypnotics, is too stupid to bear serious rebuttal. Roberto Carlosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-50038051305998393212015-06-30T16:24:54.090+01:002015-06-30T16:24:54.090+01:00Throughout this protracted discussion it seems to ...Throughout this protracted discussion it seems to have got lost that my suggestion re Tim Hunt (as reported in the Independent) was that he should not serve on panels that distribute funds or decide promotions etc; this is particularly relevant for institutions that are already criticised, rightly or wrongly, for being an old boys' club. It's a fairly fundamental principle that if you have a panel of this kind, you try to ensure the people on it are not biased against people of a particular type. Whether or not Hunt is biased, he certainly gave a very good impression of being so, in a very public manner, repeating his comments next day.<br />I have not suggested he should be gagged, shot , imprisoned, or prevented from doing science. I hope everyone can try to retain some perspective and respect my freedom of speech to express an opinion about highly unusual and overt sexist comments from a prominent figure without comparing me to Stalin or concluding I have no sense of humour. I speak for a great many women who are simply fed up with being slapped down in this way if they protest about being marginalised. deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-52439045169124089452015-06-30T16:03:29.066+01:002015-06-30T16:03:29.066+01:00Thank you, Hilda. And thank you also, Connie St. ...Thank you, Hilda. And thank you also, Connie St. Louis, Deborah Blum and Ivan Oransky.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-11381935475371495502015-06-30T15:13:21.343+01:002015-06-30T15:13:21.343+01:00The one thing that oppressive belief systems or ev...The one thing that oppressive belief systems or evil doctrines lack and therefore utterly defines them is HUMOR.<br />If I read a statement from deevybee (however intelligent she is) like for instance "a sexist remark in whatever casual or ironic context remains offensive " ...I cringe and see the image of ugly imans, dark dictators and George Orwell himself popping up in my brain...and I feel the beginning of the end of freedom of speech & thought closing in on us !<br />I sometimes wonder how Monty Python would avoid nowadays being vilified and persecuted (or even killed) if they made 'Life of Brian', or an 'over the top sexist off shoot or an islam off-shoot today?!'The boiling frog'https://www.blogger.com/profile/02878331094717033981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-13381901624849976292015-06-30T15:04:53.716+01:002015-06-30T15:04:53.716+01:00PS: it is certainly a fact, though, that 'sexi...PS: it is certainly a fact, though, that 'sexist' jokes can be problematic (shouldn't these 'sexist' teachers be sanctioned or even 'asked to resign'?) <br /><br />http://www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1559367/male-nursery-worker-reveals-how-he-faced-sexism-and-prejudice-working-in-the-childcare-sector<br /><br /> Being the only man on this female dominated course and the butt of the teachers’ jokes was hard in the beginning. “I cried every evening for the first few weeks. I had a good friend there who helped get me through it but I spent a lot of time crying into my pillow at home,” he admits.<br /><br />This did happen many years ago and he says “things have improved since I started out but men still encounter prejudice” and men are still very much a minority in childcare as only two per cent of the early years workforce is male and this statistic has remained steady in the past decade, despite national and local recruitment campaigns aimed at men. koenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675996665792692094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-45337800240803518742015-06-30T15:00:27.421+01:002015-06-30T15:00:27.421+01:00By the way, of all the lies and half truths that h...By the way, of all the lies and half truths that have been spread in this case, this one is particularly nasty, imo:<br /><br />"(a) Hunt is a retired scientist who was asked to resign from an honorary position."<br /><br />That is correct, but this is the version of the UCL provost, who funny enough, refers to this blog ('in good faith on the basis that it was his personal choice'):<br /><br />"I will simply restate that when on the 10th June Sir Tim sent in his resignation from his honorary position with UCL, as Provost I sanctioned acceptance of that resignation in good faith on the basis that it was his personal choice as the honourable thing to do." - See more at: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/staff/staff-news/0615/26062015-provosts-view-women-in-science#sthash.SczetduF.dpufkoenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675996665792692094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-90656844644930014962015-06-30T14:47:20.192+01:002015-06-30T14:47:20.192+01:001. "If it was a joke, it was a sexist joke th...1. "If it was a joke, it was a sexist joke that trivialised women scientists."<br /><br />How do you know? Context is everything. In my eyes, it doesn't triviliase women scientists at all. You probably don't like something that is implied by the 'joke': that the average woman is more emotional than the average man (and being 'emotional' is, supposedly, not very 'scientific'). Unfortunately (or not), at least some research confirms this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders<br /><br />2. However, my impression is that the remark was half joke, half serious. He expressed, in a humorous way, something that had occurred to him (but that he did not necessarily take very seriously, hence the 'jokish' way of expressing it). That opinion was that women are valuable scientists but that male and female researchers might be better off working in segregated laboratories because they fall in love with each other and because women are, on average, more emotional and 'touchy' than men (see Blum blog).<br /><br />You may not like that opinion, but it's an opinion. And we live in a culture that protects or should protect, within certain boundaries, the freedom of speech. Sexist? Probably, but so is the remark that only women give birth. It refers to a difference between the average man and the average woman. Hunt believes that some of these differences can be problematic in a work (lab) environment. He's probably right, but that should in my opinion (and almost certainly also not in his 'serious' opinion) not be a reason to segregate labs. Not in the least because a mix of men and women has also positive effects.<br /><br />http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/01/gender.world<br /><br />https://storify.com/deborahblum/tim-hunt-and-his-jokes-about-women-scientists<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />koenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02675996665792692094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-3348231884363699382015-06-30T12:03:40.533+01:002015-06-30T12:03:40.533+01:00Let me answer you, women can't cause much viol...Let me answer you, women can't cause much violence as compared to men. the degree of violence can't be compared.motherhttp://weheartit.com/jamesgordonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-50717941075595178792015-06-29T22:55:11.761+01:002015-06-29T22:55:11.761+01:00Dawn,
I found you online at York:
http://dawnbaz...Dawn,<br /><br />I found you online at York:<br /><br />http://dawnbazely.lab.yorku.ca/<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that's you.<br /><br />I'll have to schedule a visit the next time I'm in TO. Looks like you're doing some very exciting work on sustainability. I also see that you're active with the SWE.<br /><br />Great hearing from you,<br /><br />MarnieMarniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-81363133604193584172015-06-29T10:32:36.522+01:002015-06-29T10:32:36.522+01:00I have to agree with you, these two statement,it w...I have to agree with you, these two statement,it was a joke and i was being honest contradicts each other. apology was more appropriate in this caseJoshuahttp://www.artician.com/members/jamesgordon/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-4706454755877144132015-06-28T21:47:23.525+01:002015-06-28T21:47:23.525+01:00Dear Dorothy, Marnie & Hilda,
I'm blown aw...Dear Dorothy, Marnie & Hilda,<br />I'm blown away by your patient, logical responses in which you bring evidence to bear.<br />Reading the comments, I am also reminded of the research, most recently, the PUP book by Karpowitz & colleague, the Silent Sex, which shows that men consistently over-rate their ability while women under-rate their's. I find this to be a good framework for understanding what I see in some of these comments.<br />Great blog, Dorothy, cheers, DawnDawn Bazelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02092311457807127734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-78827319439492124392015-06-28T21:04:30.939+01:002015-06-28T21:04:30.939+01:00Anonymous, it is journalists' job to report wh...Anonymous, it is journalists' job to report what happened, and checking to confirm accuracy of quotes is not some kind of conspiracy: it is good professional practice. As Dorothy points out, you can hear Tim Hunt in his own words confirm that their report was accurate. The meeting's hosts publicly expressed their concerns, as did other journalists who were there. That some find it acceptable isn't surprising, as sexism is still so common.<br /><br />The differences here do not seem to be so much "what" was said, but whether or not it was meant to be "self-deprecating." And that is rather beside the point. The statements included some extraordinarily hurtful stereotypes about a gender, and about one gender in the scientific workplace. That sends a message, if a highly respected and liked Nobel Laureate can say it, then there's something ok with it. The outpouring of both sexist, misogynist, and now racist statements across the comment streams of newspapers and the internet generally, with people clearly thinking they have some kind of common cause with a Nobel Laureate, proves the point of how harmful social sanction for sexist remarks can be. That's not less so if it's a joke, and not less so if they are not intended to be malicious. Saying afterwards "hey, just kidding!" doesn't make it alright.<br /><br />Those who think attacks on Tim Hunt are wrong, but attacks on journalists doing what journalists are mean to do are fully ok, are being utterly hypocritical. Our societies need scientists and journalists. And we need to be able to debate issues without ad hominem attacks. Tim Hunt is clearly a good and highly respected person - and so are Connie St Louis, Deborah Blum and Ivan Oransky. Attempts to denigrate them as people are sickening and the sooner it stops, the better. In particular, the attacks on Connie St Louis, which include a vast amount of racist bile, are colossally offensive. That our society seems unable to stem the misogyny and racism that has been unleashed is the strongest possible argument for why respected people must not themselves add discriminatory remarks to the public discourse.<br />Hilda Bastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01418954331826160477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-57140654745587497852015-06-28T16:14:06.777+01:002015-06-28T16:14:06.777+01:00"Tim Hunt is certainly lost from any role as ..."Tim Hunt is certainly lost from any role as a science ambassador, but that is inevitable after those comments. He is not 'lost from science'. He still has a position at the Crick Institute."<br /><br />This is just asserting your opinion, if you want to say Tim Hunt is exaggerating this point why don't you say it? It is debatable, but a reasonable position to take.<br /><br />The purpose of your exercise here is clearly laid out here:<br /><br />"My concern is about the number of signatories of Ballentyne's petition who have got themselves worked up into a state of indignation on the basis of wrong information."<br /><br />So in answer to <br /><br />b) They think he is 'lost to science'<br /><br />I offered that it is perfectly reasonable for the signatories to take Hunt's assessment of his situation at face value. they can read:<br /> <br />"I am finished”? "<br /><br />and <br /><br />“I had hoped to do a lot more to help promote science in this country and in Europe, but I cannot see how that can happen. I have become toxic."<br /><br />as perfectly valid information that tells them he considers himself "lost to science".<br /><br />If you want to argue that it "wrong information" that's fine but you have to argue directly against Tim Hunt. Making out there is some clinical proof that the signatories are wrong without directly engaging Hunt is deceptive.<br /><br />I notice you didn't address point c.<br />TLITBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07639419243076322855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-23664040099425512972015-06-28T15:35:29.784+01:002015-06-28T15:35:29.784+01:00Stephen,
You also appear to have quite a lengthy ...Stephen,<br /><br />You also appear to have quite a lengthy history as a commenter at the Guardian under the pseudonym Karisade Aureyn.<br /><br />Just looking back only at some of your most recent comments there, you parade yourself as an expert on gender equity issues in the scientific workplace. <br /><br />From what I can tell of your background, you graduated from Oxford in theology in 2002. Since then, you appear to have worked on game design and as a tutor.<br /><br />I don't believe you have worked in a scientific lab, or even in science or engineering. Correct me if I am wrong.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-70124077209645533932015-06-28T08:59:08.543+01:002015-06-28T08:59:08.543+01:00Tim Hunt is certainly lost from any role as a scie...Tim Hunt is certainly lost from any role as a science ambassador, but that is inevitable after those comments. He is not 'lost from science'. He still has a position at the Crick Institute.<br />I'm rather taken aback by all the fuss over whether it was a joke or not. Since on Radio 4 he said he was 'just being honest' it seems unlikely he intended a joke, but as far as I am concerned it is neither here nor there. If it was a joke, it was a sexist joke that trivialised women scientists. A lot of sexism is casual, and remarks which marginalise or undermine women in science are often made by those who are not horrible, misogynistic people. That's half the problem: if we accept sexist comments as normal behaviour, we just perpetuate sexism.<br />The other thing I find odd is people who argue it's all OK because he then said good things about women. Sexism is not a zero sum game where you are entitled to say something sexist provided you say something positive about women to cancel it out.<br />For those who think it was all entirely normal behaviour, I would ask this question: can you think of any other occasion where a high-profile figure made a similar comment about women - joke or otherwise - in such a very public forum?deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-19308318695191029212015-06-28T08:44:37.307+01:002015-06-28T08:44:37.307+01:00Please be more specific. I will correct any factua...Please be more specific. I will correct any factual errorsdeevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-27678419098635734092015-06-28T08:42:53.610+01:002015-06-28T08:42:53.610+01:00Tim Hunt has not denied saying what was reported. ...Tim Hunt has not denied saying what was reported. He repeated most of it the next day on Radio 4, where the interview was recorded.deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-79624964916020851962015-06-28T08:42:03.427+01:002015-06-28T08:42:03.427+01:00You really are putting words into my mouth there. ...You really are putting words into my mouth there. <br />Of course it is relevant; does not mean I discount one viewpoint. deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-41003842420091907792015-06-28T08:38:56.355+01:002015-06-28T08:38:56.355+01:00UCL explain their stance in their most recent stat...UCL explain their stance in their most recent statement<br />https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/staff/staff-news/0615/26062015-provosts-view-women-in-sciencedeevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-21464576636042670252015-06-28T08:36:40.812+01:002015-06-28T08:36:40.812+01:00Yes, you may not think it makes a difference, but ...Yes, you may not think it makes a difference, but many people would. I, for one, would have agreed with the petition if he had been fired from a proper job. <br />As I pointed out, it is clearly a very divisive issue as to whether the response was appropriate given that it was an honorary position. Personally, I think it was, but I know reasonable people who disagree with me.<br />But what has totally muddled the issue is to have a load of people arguing the case on the basis of false information.deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-37005943259485669792015-06-27T21:28:52.261+01:002015-06-27T21:28:52.261+01:00I earlier commented on the blog of Athene Donald r...I earlier commented on the blog of Athene Donald regarding (c). I'll repeat that here.<br /><br />You state: "UCL are explicit that their acceptance of his resignation from an honorary position had nothing to do with the reaction on social media."<br /><br />I’m sure that this is true, UCL will have a policy to accept resignations rather than declining them… What the UCL statement DOES NOT say is “Media and online commentary played no part in UCL’s decision to ask for his resignation”. <br /><br />These statements from universities are usually very carefully worded. I don't think it is a coincidence that UCL wrote "to accept his resignation" rather than "to ask for his resignation".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-27502562219664802982015-06-27T19:41:45.696+01:002015-06-27T19:41:45.696+01:00What about the high likelihood that Connie St Loui...What about the high likelihood that Connie St Louis lied about the whole situation just like she lied on her CV about her entire career? Also, her two partners got together with her and planned out how they were going to spin it. Given that Connie is an habitual liar why should we believe her over a nobel prize winner or the EU representative who was there? <br /><br />I would love to see people retracting their statements about tim hunt's joke and apologize but that won't happen because that goes against the narrative.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-39672742369588962902015-06-27T16:03:14.298+01:002015-06-27T16:03:14.298+01:00You were losing me before, but you totally lost me...You were losing me before, but you totally lost me when you counted who the number of male commenters and having decided that was useful information, implicitly implied it was a reason to discount the comments.<br /><br />Sexism is sexism is sexism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com