tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post9218662041636517919..comments2024-03-25T17:14:36.888+00:00Comments on BishopBlog: Postgraduate education: time for a rethinkdeevybeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-63980518308804351572013-06-21T19:12:33.811+01:002013-06-21T19:12:33.811+01:00Thanks Christian and Anon for giving a different p...Thanks Christian and Anon for giving a different perspective. International comparisons are useful for suggesting better ways of doing things, and it sounds like there are also options abroad that some of our good UK people might want to explore. agile traininghttp://www.scalestudy.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-4808328691264502352013-03-22T11:07:23.754+00:002013-03-22T11:07:23.754+00:00Great post. I was checking continuously this blog ...Great post. I was checking continuously this blog and I am impressed!<br /><br />Very helpful information specifically the last part :) I care for <br />such info much. I was seeking this particular information for a very <br /><br />long time. Thank you and good luckrestaurant loanshttp://www.getarestaurantloan.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-90412204602714312052013-03-04T10:07:54.217+00:002013-03-04T10:07:54.217+00:00I studied as a post grad in Oxford in the late 90&...I studied as a post grad in Oxford in the late 90's and, while it was a wonderful experience, I<br />had a very similar expereince to Mr Shannon at the admission stage. I had to demonstrate that I had the money before I could take up my place. Fortunately, I did have my money, although I take the view of Mr Shannon - ie, the only real concern for most colleges should be your ability to pay tuition fees. <br /><br />When I studied I was a registered nurse and so planned to undertake some clinical work where appropriate to generate money to live on. Providing this didn't affect my work or ability to study, what I did in my own time, had nothing to do with my college.<br /><br />on another note, Oxford's continued failure to adapt to part time study is anachronistic. Consequently, it precludes a huge proportion of people from studying there, simply because they aren't able to study full time and this is a real shame. I happen to think the part time aspect is more to do with elitism than anything else<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-80455833068226061622013-02-24T11:58:06.612+00:002013-02-24T11:58:06.612+00:00Haven't read a piece here in a while that I co...Haven't read a piece here in a while that I could say such an unqualified "Amen" to, so I'll say it twice - Amen and Amen. My girls's private Christian school recently went through a crisis after a sudden move to a curriculum that would have embraced this "integrated" model. For many parents, the requirement for their "gifted" children to be one grade ahead so they could be at the top of the SAT heap and get into Stanford ahead of the unwashed public schoolers trumped all.Sean Rikerhttp://www.cluonline.com/bible-college-online.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-63364707682878391442013-02-17T15:44:21.276+00:002013-02-17T15:44:21.276+00:00As a former postgraduate student at Oxford, I can ...As a former postgraduate student at Oxford, I can concur that it IS an expensive place to live on a student stipend. Rents are at London levels, and non-college socialising (normal things like going to the cinema, having a drink in a pub, or having a cheap restaurant meal with friends - not fine dining or going to balls) are also more expensive than elsewhere.<br />I do find the Oxford idea that you can't be a proper student if you aren't there full time a little odd though. I spent a lot of time collecting data in London, or even just in local schools, which takes just as much time away from college/seminars etc. as doing a part time job and studying part time, but I didn't feel I missed out.Katie Alcockhttp://evidencebasedparenting.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-81434457560743105442013-02-17T12:58:05.914+00:002013-02-17T12:58:05.914+00:00I think the situation in Belgium is quite similar ...I think the situation in Belgium is quite similar to that in Sweden (although living expenses are probably much cheaper - and we do get a good number of international PhD students). <br /><br />- all PhD students are financially supported by a scholarship (100% research), either paid from a research grant awarded to the supervisor, or directly awarded to the PhD student (for example by the Research Foundation Flanders) <br />- tuition fees for doctoral studies are minimal (300 € in your first and last year of graduate studies)!<br />- Net wages vary between 1600 and 2000 € per month (depending on your age etc), with on top of that: holiday allowance, end-of-year bonus and reimbursement of transport fees (or a mileage fee if one decides to cycle)… <br /><br />In sum, the scholarship is more than enough to cover accommodation (one-bedroom flat in Leuven is about 600 euro), self-catering, etc. and after all costs are covered, you can actually still save quite a bit.<br /><br />The part-time option is mainly chosen because of family commitments, or if one starts graduate studies after already having a "regular job" and one does not want to quit the job. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10371065954151844274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-47951862258992148092013-02-17T11:22:40.004+00:002013-02-17T11:22:40.004+00:00Thanks Jay. I certainly agree part-time is seldom ...Thanks Jay. I certainly agree part-time is seldom ideal. I've seen it in Australia, where I often visit, and where students can take years to get a doctorate. Others have pointed out to me that these students are also seldom well-integrated into University life, and may miss out on seminars, etc that happen during the working day. You also mention problems with the staff-student ratio: this issue is another reason why, I suspect, Oxford has resisted this, because it would be especially hard to fit in with the college system. <br />I'd be interested in more international comparisons to see if there are other countries that manage this better.<br />As far as I can see, in the UK the only alternative would be to create more scholarships and it's hard to see how that will happen. Unless the baby-boomers (my generation) could be persuaded to leave money in their wills for this - some payback for the largely free education that we enjoyed. <br />deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-78071462359504299752013-02-15T15:03:31.965+00:002013-02-15T15:03:31.965+00:00I teach at a graduate school in the USA in New Yor...I teach at a graduate school in the USA in New York City, which has a lot of part timers. We're moving away from that for a variety of reasons, towards fewer, fully funded students. Part timers can be very good students and I know there are some folks I definitely would miss having but the system got out of hand catering to part timers. It was impossible to keep many of them on track towards a reasonable time graduation, and the faculty/student ratio got way out of hand. Jay Verkuilenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461798676830653869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-58069799582679590752013-02-15T10:22:04.667+00:002013-02-15T10:22:04.667+00:00Thanks, Dorothy for your comments.
As you note, tu...Thanks, Dorothy for your comments.<br />As you note, tuition fees are 6659 pa (in your dept). If someone starts their studies with an ESRC studentship (say a project linked studentship from a grant), then the max fees the ESRC will pay are 3732 (http://www.esrc.ac.uk/funding-and-guidance/funding-opportunities/looking-for-funding/studentship-stipends.aspx). Most Universities, whatever their exact tuition fees - often less than above, will write off the difference and accept what the ESRC gives, because of course they want the studentship, the stipend for the student, the kudos etc.<br />But that's a big loss leader. Presumably if a self-funding student only paid 3732 in fees, they would have an extra 3000 pounds to increase their demonstration of financial security.<br />Nb this is not a comment on this case specifically, and its impact depends on what the tuition fees costs are. But is seems an awkward 'brush under the carpet' anomaly that has developed because of the inexorable rise in fees at postgrad level.anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312754690336149011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-60183207375940211812013-02-12T08:34:06.565+00:002013-02-12T08:34:06.565+00:00Thanks Christian and Anon for giving a different p...Thanks Christian and Anon for giving a different perspective. International comparisons are useful for suggesting better ways of doing things, and it sounds like there are also options abroad that some of our good UK people might want to explore. deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-682002802682675762013-02-10T19:32:23.114+00:002013-02-10T19:32:23.114+00:00Thank you for a great blogpost- as usual! In Norwa...Thank you for a great blogpost- as usual! In Norway minimum salary is 48 000 GBP a year for a four year contract as a Phd fellow (25% teaching, 75% research). The living expenses in Norway are higher than in Britain, but nontheless the arrangements and benefits for Phd students here are very good. <br />(e.g see http://uio.easycruit.com/vacancy/888755/65781?iso=no)However, in spite of that all our Phd positions are announced internationally, we rarely get any applicants from abroad. Of course a Phd at oxford is much more attractive than one from Norway, but students also need to be aware of that there are also attractive possibilities outside Britain. Language is not a big issue, there is no problem taking the Phd here using English (also the teaching)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-76498594550268462692013-02-10T11:16:27.802+00:002013-02-10T11:16:27.802+00:00Thanks for a very enlightening and engaging post -...Thanks for a very enlightening and engaging post - as usual I might add. I come from a country (Sweden), where since several years there is a requirement by law that any PhD position needs to be fully financed – by a university/faculty grant, by an external research grant, or by private wealth or equivalent resources (such as income from a part time employment combined w part time studies or, as in the present case, by a bank loan). If a PhD candidate is accepted on the last condition and the circumstances change, however, regulation stipulates that university has a responsibility to provide the outstanding funding, so fewer and fewer are admitted on such grounds because of the financial risk involved. In other words, taking on PhD candidates is a strong commitment, not only with regard to academic resources and pedagogic challenge, but in straightforward financial terms. Very recently, the regulation has been further strengthened, when it has been ruled that financing via grants, should by default come in the form of employment (securing the student social and pension benefits that do not accompany private scholarships or stipends or loans). This means that nowadays, we cannot admit people by far as freely as we could in the past, but it also means that those who are admitted are given the very best conditions for successfully completing their PhD studies in reasonable time. Also, the competition is tougher, which from a quality point of view is only a good thing - and this was indeed the explicit main motivation from the government for this reform when it was initiated. Anyhow, it seems to me that the sort of law case currently under scrutiny with regard to Oxford and the connected debate would never arise had the UK implemented similar rules on a national level.Christian Munthehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03373442927438898939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-54908683191053826012013-02-10T10:52:02.908+00:002013-02-10T10:52:02.908+00:00I shall surmise to you how I have put this in my c...I shall surmise to you how I have put this in my court submissions:<br /><br />"MEALS in College are significantly cheaper than purchasing MEALS outside". That is, it is cheaper to eat in College than a comparable (private) restaurant. That is not a proper justification of the requirement to have the funds to do the former. I have established in my submissions that dining in College is more expensive than self-catering. Some Colleges adopt a policy even more ridiculous than the financial guarantee, in that they FORCE their students to pay a termly "dining levy" which can only be redeemed in the College restaurant, and if it is not redeemed, the money is lost! The elites running your institution are simply not of this planet. They are turning away perfectly good students on the grounds that they cannot (or choose not) to afford this completely unnecessary levy. It is not a question of whether the levy is "lavish", but whether it is "necessary" and "goes any further than is required". That is how the courts will assess it.<br /><br />How is Oxford "expensive compared to other cities"? On what basis do you make this claim? Are you implying groceries cannot be found at reasonable prices there? For my court submissions I compiled a database of every rental price for University and College owned accommodation, and a sample of almost 1,000 private sector rents. So at least one of us has bothered to research our claims.<br /><br />Whether projected earnings should be taken into account - world class Universities such as Harvard actually INSIST they be taken into account! You MUST as a graduate at Harvard accept the responsibility to earn a reasonable sum of money as a condition of receiving financial support from University funds. Closer to home, this is also de rigeur. Exeter, Edinburgh, Sheffield etc all have job shops, all encourage their students to make up their income with part time work. On what rational basis is Oxford opposing this? Again, the University is at odds with reality. Universities UK are on record as stating that they allow their students to work during study as the alternative is not being able to study at all. Why should Oxford be any different? (I will come to this again below)<br /><br />The origins of the policy strike me as ludicrous. The College have not submitted a SINGLE piece of empirical evidence justifying the policy. Not a single statistic. The figure itself is arrived at by the Committee of Domestic Bursars of the Conference of Colleges conducting a survey of... themselves!<br /><br />I will finish by saying to you what I have said to others. The ONLY reason Oxford enforce this policy is because they know with absolute certainty they will attract a sufficient number of wealthy applicants to fill the places, regardless of what financial restrictions on entry are devised. What happens if all of the offers are given to people of limited means? Do the University keep rejecting candidates, going further and further down the rankings of academic suitability, until they find those sufficiently resource-rich to meet the financial conditions? If most people made offers are of limited means, either the financial or the academic requirements must be relaxed to fill the places. Which goes first?Damien Shannonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-35710127022564258942013-02-10T06:21:35.312+00:002013-02-10T06:21:35.312+00:00Thanks for your comment. I apologise for the error...Thanks for your comment. I apologise for the error over the date, which I have corrected in the post.<br />I should add that, as readers of this blog will know, I'm not speaking in any official capacity. More often or not my views are divergent with those of the University establishment. <br />But let's just get this "dining in a restaurant" clear. Here's what the University website says: "The cost above is based on a mixture of eating meals in college and self-catering. Meals in colleges are subsidised and can be significantly cheaper than purchasing meals outside. Self-catering can also minimise food costs."<br />See also this student website, re living expenses: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2072104&page=2<br />My reading of this is that while, with careful budgeting, it's possible to exist on the meals allowance specified by Oxford, it's hardly lavish. And Oxford is expensive compared to other cities.<br />There's also the issue of whether projected earnings should be taken into account. These can be hard to guarantee, especially in current financial climate when people are losing jobs all around.<br />No doubt you have researched the origins of the University's policy - I had always assumed it was put in place because they've found that many people who start optimistically thinking they can manage on minimal income end up having to drop out. But I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong in this.<br /><br /><br />deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-11771972623126078552013-02-10T02:40:34.419+00:002013-02-10T02:40:34.419+00:00I agree completely with Mr Shannon. It smacks of ...I agree completely with Mr Shannon. It smacks of paternalism for the College to make a determination of what an adult student can/cannot do during their studies, particularly when they're not claiming to be able to work full-time in order to pay their fees in addition to living costs -- Mr Shannon has a loan to cover his fees and part of his living costs.Dr Howard Fredricshttp://www.howardfredrics.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-13854667820940163222013-02-10T02:03:17.371+00:002013-02-10T02:03:17.371+00:00Interesting. Your commentary about my case is simp...Interesting. Your commentary about my case is simply wrong. You should really take the time to actually research the matters on which you produce public comment before deciding to publish. A few corrections/comments to make:<br /><br />1) I issued proceedings in October 2012, not last month. The press reported on it last month.<br /><br />2) I am not creating a diversion of any kind. You might want to rephrase this sentence. I am suing an affiliated College of your University because the policy of your University (which the College enforces) is that those who cannot afford to socialise and dine in College are not suitable for admission. I have not made this up - it is official policy. See here: http://www.ox.ac.uk/feesandfunding/fees/livingcosts/graduates/ . It has not been denied in court proceedings. Indeed it will not be denied before the courts on Friday. Instead, people much like yourself (who appear to be utterly delusional and divorced from reality) are going to attempt to argue before a judge with a straight face that it is perfectly reasonable to refuse access to people who cannot afford to dine in a restaurant!<br /><br />I realise you as an academic would clearly much rather insulate yourself from the realities of human existence and simply not have to deal with the human consequences of poverty. This sentence you have authored sums up the whole issue for me:<br /><br />"what we definitely don’t want are students whose studies are disrupted by malnutrition, financial stress and the tiredness that comes from trying to do postgraduate work while holding down a job."<br /><br />I have tried to be courteous with everybody I have debated with on this subject, but this sentence, frankly, shows you to be a total idiot. It is absolutely none of your concern whether a student is "malnourished" (although how you could ever hope to qualify that statement is beyond me), "financially stressed" or "tired". Providing they do their work to a satisfactory standard within a specified deadline, and pay their fees, the rest of their life is absolutely none of your business.Damien Shannonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-875386000194268672013-02-09T13:38:24.014+00:002013-02-09T13:38:24.014+00:00Schade - aus meiner Sicht - dass sie nicht auch Pr...Schade - aus meiner Sicht - dass sie nicht auch Professoren suchen.Dr Austhttp://draust.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-4079359570080436852013-02-09T13:29:04.145+00:002013-02-09T13:29:04.145+00:00Many thanks Tristram - I have corrected the post ...Many thanks Tristram - I have corrected the post - and am delighted to have discovered this. There is hope!<br />And thanks too Uta - that's really useful information, and I hope will inspire some students to look further afield.deevybeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15118040887173718391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-46951030708133548062013-02-09T12:19:51.939+00:002013-02-09T12:19:51.939+00:00Just at the moment - so I've heard - is a very...Just at the moment - so I've heard - is a very good time to apply for a PhD studentship at German Universities. You are very likely to get a studentship if you have “Intelligence, discipline, creativity, rationalism, stubbornness – and sheer nerdiness” PLUS reasonable command of German. Mobility of students across European countries has been a way of life for centuries, but some grounding in different languages has also been crucial. Uta Frithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10614007880798838249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5841910768079015534.post-38765252762734924002013-02-09T12:04:20.730+00:002013-02-09T12:04:20.730+00:00Good points in your post. The next generations of ...Good points in your post. The next generations of British academics are going to be drawn from a much narrower pool, in part defined by family wealth. <br /><br />However, on a point of detail (which does not change the value of your overall point), Oxford University does offer many part-time post-graduate degrees at Masters level and DPhil but in a limited range of subjects. Kellogg College, Oxford(www.kellogg.ox.ac.uk) was set up as a particular home for part-time postgraduates. The subjects with part-time postgraduate degrees, taught and/or by research, include software engineering, local history, evidence based healthcare and many others. See http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/postgraduate_courses/course_guide/about_our_programmes.html#aparttime_degrees <br /><br />I'm a fellow at Kellogg College. tristramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14924212250582474917noreply@blogger.com